Wednesday, December 2, 2009

Loudoun: Next to Last for Teachers?

Author:
There’s a bit of back-and-forth happening on Monday’s blog post about budget priorities. It’s a typical debate about teacher/public employee salaries. That discussion is worth its own thread. There’s something important that the community should know: Loudoun County pays its teachers less than eight out of the nine regional public school districts.

I’ll show you what that looks like. The chart below shows the difference in starting teacher salaries between each jurisdiction and the Manassas school district, which has the lowest pay scale in the region. Red is for a bachelor’s degree and Green for a master’s degree.
(Click for a larger version)

Loudoun pays a new teacher with a BA $54 more per year than Manassas does. We pay a teacher with an MA $495 more than Manassas does. Nobody besides Manassas pays less than Loudoun. In Montgomery County a starting teacher with a BA earns $3,771 more than in Loudoun County in the first year.

Now the question I have for you is this: Is this the extent to which Loudoun values public education? I don’t think it is. I think our pay scale has fallen out of step with our values as a community. Loudoun is a highly educated, high-achieving community with high expectations for its children’s future. We’re not going to retain our best teachers or hire the best teachers with a pay scale like this. Without the best teachers, we can’t ensure our children’s best future.

Just 18 months ago, Loudoun was fourth on this list instead of eighth:
5/27/2008: Of the ten Washington metro jurisdictions, eight are raising teacher salaries this year. Two are not, and Loudoun is one of them. We are still behind the same three that we were behind last year: Fairfax, Prince George's and Montgomery Counties, but by a greater degree. (Teacher Raises Around the Region)
Previous to that I wrote about the nature of teacher salaries:
2/7/2008: Salaries of any job are part of the free market, and set based on what is required to recruit and retain the best employees. Every industry pays different amounts to different people based on the supply and demand of skills, and LCPS is subject to that same free market when it comes to teachers. Our teacher salaries are set based on that free market, not as a moral judgment of how much someone deserves to be paid. When I consider the challenge and importance of the work that teachers do and the impact it has on the future of our world, I think they should be paid much more (same for law enforcement, firefighters, military and other public safety personnel), but no society has ever though it could afford to pay public employees according to the importance and risk associated with their jobs. (Teacher Salaries, Concisely)
There is plenty of time to talk about the budget and the role salaries play. I just want to start with these two questions: Did you know that Loudoun is next to last for teachers? Is that where we want to be?
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31 comments:

  2. There are budget hearings coming up... one is on Thursday, Dec. 10, at the admin. building in Ashburn. You can also email the board of supervisors and indicate your support of funding Loudoun County schools and their teachers.
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  3. John, once again you show what an idiot you are...those salaries are also related to the cost of living in those areas of the region. The most expensive place to live has to pay the highest salaries, etc...But let's follow your plan...raise taxes through the roof...open up facebook and youtube so everyone can surf the web and play games during school hours...let's go ahead and print WE LOVE JOHN posters while we're at it...But shouldn't a responsible school board member be trying to find ways to reward and retain excellent teachers and trim waste in the school system instead of spouting off populist rubbish in an economy where the reality is everyone is going to have to accept less next year? Or are your values that all these families holding on by a thread that can't afford another expense should just move from Loudoun if they can't make teachers the highest paid in the region?
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  4. To the anonymous poster above.

    You provide no solution to the problem. Only the typical complaints. Your taxes will not go up through the roof. Your taxes are already pathetically low in comparison to any major metro area. Look at tax rates in NY or LA where the cost of living is very similar to the DC metro area.

    Your post seems to be the typical "I only care about myself" attitude expressed all too much in this area. Get off your high horse and join society.

    Happy Holidays too.
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  5. Dear Anonymous #2: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" - Thumper

    I think "WE" as adults can speak our opinion in a more respectful manner, don't you? Not sure if you've been to any board meetings but Loudoun does reward their teachers, (I've seen 1st hand).


    There's many things I disagree about the county school system but the difference between you and I is that I'm doing something constructive about it. You're just complaining and throwing insults. I can appreciate your passion for how you feel but let's be adults. Information like this is important to know. Have a good life with that attitude.


    Ciao
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  6. Great use of scales on your graph to distort the truth.

    Comparing salaries to Maryland localities is apples to oranges because the state does not offer nearly as sweet a retirement benefit as Virginia. Falls Church, Arlington, Alexandria, and Fairfax have to pay more because the cost of living is higher there. Any difference in pay with Loudoun is quickly eaten up in higher housing or commuting costs. The only apples to apples comparison is with Prince William County and the difference is only $224, or about 0.5%; but Loudoun more than makes up for that with a better benefits package. See www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/wabe/2010.pdf for details. In fact, if you figure in benefits (see page 41) Loudoun ranks 4th out of 9 DC localities. Why don't you graph that?

    The bottom line is that when all factors are considered, Loudoun offers a better compensation package than any other DC locality.
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  7. I'm quite certain that the first people to protest teacher salaries are the first parents to demand that a teacher provide extra help for their child before or after school hours and who blame the teacher for their child's lack of work ethic or brains.

    Someone commented in a different thread that the teachers have a sense if entitlement which made me chuckle. I honestly don't know any teacher that feels that way. However, a good portion of my 120+ students suffer from a sense of entitlement passed on to them by their parents.

    Profe
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  8. FYI - Not included in Mr. Stevens' graph are neighboring Fauquier and Clarke counties with starting teacher salaries of $40,000 and $36,500, respectively.

    To answer his question, "Is that where we want to be?" Yes. I doubt there will be a mass exodus of teachers because of the unfounded claim that LCPS does not offer competitive pay.
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  9. How much of this is due to differing tax structures as well? I used to live in Montgomery County (and can say that Loudoun schools are more consistently good than in MoCo. MoCo has, I think, wider disparities from neighborhood to neighborhood). But Montgomery Cty is not as dependent on real estate property taxes for its budget as Loudoun is. Montgomery has a commercial tax base. They levy an income tax, which is by its nature more tied to people's ability to pay (as property taxes are not -- for awhile there, Loudoun was taxing me for an $800K house when I didn't buy an $800K house and certainly can't afford one).

    Montgomery Cty is hurting like all counties are but I have to think that their situation is more stable than ours. Many of these other counties, as well, aren't building lots of new schools, either. Arlington is pretty much built out.

    I would love to see our teachers paid more, but we do have to deal with the realities of our situation. We have a lot of schools to build in the next ten years.
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  10. I'm tired about reading about the counties here and there as well as how their teachers get paid. FACT: The Washington Post ranked Loudoun County the wealthiest county in the United States. FACT its been in the top 3 in the previous several years. FACT Loudoun County teachers aren't even in the top 15 starting salary in the country. FACT 35 years ago a house in Loudoun cost 15K and teachers were paid 5K, a 3:1 ratio. FACT now the cost of a house is around 300K and a teachers salary is 50K a 6:1 ratio. Based on these FACTS the value of teachers salaries has decreased by 50% in comparison to surrounding inflation. Doesn't it make sense the wealthiest county in the country would pay its teachers the highest salaries? I know those annoying facts always get in the way.
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  11. LOUDOUN IS THE RICHEST COUNTY! I hear it over and over again. I see it in the paper, hear it on the news. However, the "RICHEST" county does not support the education of their youngest citizens.

    Good teachers WILL move on to greener pastures. You people will be left with the bottom of the barrel. Working in Loudoun in the next couple years will be for all the teachers that cannot get jobs in counties that pay.
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  12. LOUDOUN IS THE RICHEST COUNTY! I hear it over and over again. I see it in the paper, hear it on the news. However, the "RICHEST" county does not support the education of their youngest citizens.

    Good teachers WILL move on to greener pastures. You people will be left with the bottom of the barrel. Working in Loudoun in the next couple years will be for all the teachers that cannot get jobs in counties that pay.

    WAKE UP LOUDOUN! TEACHERS REALLY TRAINED AND MOTIVATED TO WORK WILL LEAVE! YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE TAUGHT BY WHATEVER IS LEFT.
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  13. TO: ANONYMOUS CALLING JOHN AN IDIOT. Speak for yourself. Cost of living in Loudoun is NOT less than the surrounding areas. Many teachers I work with cannot afford to live in the county in which they teach. They commute from West Virginia, Winchester and places where they can live on what we get.
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  14. As many of you write that salaries for teachers is not important to keep the best in our county. . . send your little cuties to school and realize when those adorable little ones are trying to get into college the colleges will laugh at them having a Loudoun County education, and slam the door in her face.
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  15. Thanks to all you people out there that selfishly voted to keep your taxes down in exchange for our salaries last year. Ha! Your taxes increased the same rate and we didn't get a raise either! WE need to pay taxes too you know! And our salaries are making that next to impossible.
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  16. Dear Working Poor,
    I'm sorry that you don't feel like you have the support of the parents at your school or the taxpayers in the larger Loudoun community. I too know awesome teachers who can't afford to be homeowners in our county.
    I don't presume to know the ins and outs of the LCPS pay and benefit scale, so what do you suggest?
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  17. cut the fluff! we don't need spanish in the elementary school, or in the 6th grade. Do 7th graders really need a high school credit in another language at the expense of English. Bring back 2 blocks of English for our 7th graders and get rid of the foreign language teachers for that grade. Do we really need Chinese language taught to a very small percentage of kids? Do we really need consulting teachers? Do we really need assistants to assistants at the admin level?? What about the transportation budget? Do we really need to send a bus to take kids to school that can walk across the street? AND mostly it would be a step in the right direction if some of our top officials would take a pay CUT! I realize they may work hard but NO ONE works harder than the teachers that are in the classroom EVERYDAY. Take a good hard look at the staff in the administration building-- that should be the first place you make cuts.
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  18. TO SEW CREATIVE MOM

    Thank you for offering to help us. The only recourse now is for mass emailing to BOS@loudoun.gov supporting teacher raises, and showing up and even speaking in support of the teacher raise. Teachers cannot do it alone.

    Thank you!
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  19. Reminder: While Loudoun does have one of the highest median incomes in the country, not everyone in the county is able to afford higher property taxes. We have many long-time residents who are on fixed incomes. Higher taxes for those residents means that they will have to sell their homes.

    The Board of Supervisors, the State, and the Federal Government together gave the School Board $800 Million dollars last year.

    The money that came from the Board of Supervisors was not earmarked. The School Board gets to decide HOW to spend that money.

    So if the School Board decided to pay for 11 assistants to Hatrick, and a dean for every 450 students, that was money that could have been spent on increasing teacher salaries and wasn't.

    I serve on the county's Community Services Board which oversees services to some of our most vulnerable citizens (the department of Mental Health, Mental Retardation, and Substance Abuse Services), and the amount we get from the Board of Supervisors doesn't cover what the School Board spends on busses.

    And we've been told to look for cuts of about 10%.

    And that doesn't count cuts from the state.

    So it seems to me that the School Board can find a way to make the 70% of all county spending that it gets cover the needs of the students and teachers without asking retirees to pay more or taking a larger piece of the county pie.
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  20. Regarding salaries in Fauquier and Clarke Counties. . . These are still rural areas. Fauquier is largely agricultural. Taxes are extremely low since they had the intelligence to contain growth. Clarke is also very low. Loudoun is NOT.

    Loudoun parents want a Mercedes Benz teacher for the cost of a Nissan pickup truck. Doesn't work that way.
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  21. Working Poor: I am sick of this menality that because Loudoun is the richest county - according to some skewed statistic on median household income - we should hand over more of our money for wasteful government spending.

    If you teachers want to get paid more, then you need to talk to your superintendent and school board. Tell them to free up more money for salaries by cutting the fluff, which will also entail eliminating positions. Offer to teach more students to reduce staff further. I'm all in favor of paying the good teachers more money and getting rid of the not-so-good ones, as well as their positions. But all this is impossible when the number one priority of the school board is to avoid layoffs.
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  22. To be clear: I am saying that our county has many priorities.

    One of those priorities is a great school system (which we have!)

    Others are keeping residents in their homes and providing other essential services to people who need them - such as group homes for adults with developmental delays.

    I hope that folks commenting here remember that there are other things that we need to fund and that all departments in the county are getting squeezed to the point where it will harm the providing of services.

    I hope that teachers can get raises this year, but I think we need to face that IF they do, it'll come at the expense of some other aspect of the schools budget.
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  23. Liz, I am a teacher. I live in my family home where I grew up, and inherited it. I would like to earn enough money to be able to pay the outrageous Loudoun taxes so I can stay in my ancestral home.

    Teachers have to pay taxes too and without raises in anything but taxes this is becoming next to impossible.

    I DO NOT believe education is the BOS's priority. They got us into this mess with over-development.
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  24. To Anonoymous who said TEACHERS NEED TO TALK TO THE SCHOOL BOARD.. . We do. We talk to the Board of Supervisors and the School Board. It's not enough. The BOS claims they allocate money to all citizens and if keeping quality teachers isn't a priority of ALL residents, they cannot respect our wishes. Happened last year, and the year before.
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  25. I do believe teachers deserve good pay and raise most years. However, our school board is part of the problem. One, we have many extras at each school which only a small few use. Those smart boards are nice, but almost every classroom has them. And two new schools will be getting that all purpose turf for football/soccer fields, cut back with all the extra admin in all the buildings, perhaps bigger school building would have 1 less HS, MS and ES. I see poor planning, which seems to be out of control for the past 20 years. There is nobody to step back and say here are the boundaries for these ES which feeds into this MS, which feeds into this HS. Seems like we're always trying to put a band aid out there. And how many assistant Principals, guidance counselors, deans does Loudoun need?
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  26. Let me just say this: we have a BOS member who said when she ran for office she would support increases as enrollment increased and Cost of living increases then attempted to cut funding to schools.
    Loudoun County Schools ended up having millions of dollars taken from their budget to pay for other expenses. When the Board was callled out, Lori Waters claimed that the Schools were GREEDY.
    This is not name calling these are the facts.
    We need a BOS that honestly appreciates the value of education. This is an investment in our future.
    As for cost of living. Loudoun County has one of the, if not the, highest average household incomes in the country.
    Cost of living goes up and young teachers are leaving. Think of the cost of training new teachers in terms of human resources and in terms of bring them up to speed in our school system.
    We lose teachers and we lose money.
    Wake up folks, we have BOS members who do not care about public education.
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  27. Nice try skewing the statistics.
    Loudoun's HIGH PAYING salaries are known NATIONWIDE. Compare Loudoun's starting salary to districts around the country and tell me where we fit.
    Loudoun has no problem recruiting teachers.
    Don't kid yourself...Loudoun has its equal share of great teachers and bad ones. The amount you pay doesn't change this.

    The reason kids excel here is primarily due to their home life, not what happens at school. This is a highly educated population that values education.

    Answer this question: what do you think would happen if you took the children of Loudoun and put them all in DC Public schools and vice versa. All of a sudden, DC Public schools would be excelling and Loudoun's would go down the drain.

    All that being said, there probably is some money for raises, if the tens of millions of other fat is trimmed from the budget.

    In addition, the amount of NON-TEACHING staff at our schools is ridiculous.
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  28. Do not forget to add nearly 40% in fringe benefits to their compensation package. If a starting salary is $44K, that is another $17K to the overall package. John either is trying to seed his agenda by not presenting the entire picture, or he is not as informed as he should be in this matter.

    Hatrick and the School Board got their raises last year. Where is the outrage by the teachers?
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  29. Forgive me for interjecting.

    Benefits information across all districts is available in the WABE report to which I provided links. Feel free to write a comparison and I'll post it on this blog.

    Neither the school board nor Dr. Hatrick received raises last year.
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  30. I looked at the budget after reading the above post and that is correct, 40% of the $890 MILLION goes toward "fringe" costs.
    76 days of paid leave is a nice benefit that surely should count for something in the calculation. Teaching is a tough job, but the Board of Supervisors must be fiscally responsible and not over react to some of the propoganda out there.
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  31. Okay, nice graph....but what about the rest of the towns and counties around Loudoun. All of those listed are to the east which doesn't allow anyone to make any valid comparisons for Loudoun. The graph is irrelevant to the discussion.
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